More water / meth injection

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RICE RACING
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:08 am

Re: More water / meth injection

Post by RICE RACING »

Tested to 2000Hz PWM Frequency on Aquatec pump, no issue for the Life Racing PDUx3 ;) ~ 3 hours run time on pump, that is allot of 1/4 mile passes :lol: :roll:
Learned allot, especially for people wanting to apply this in a synchronous manner (port injection), There is no doubt many who don't use the Internet/Arsebook for knowledge so for the other bottom feeders who do will put it up here :ugeek: BIG issues using this pump as delivered for that application just on its own and this is compounded when using a HSV or solenoid flow control device upstream !
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MReilly
Posts: 33
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Re: More water / meth injection

Post by MReilly »

Love this, proper control 8-)

What sort of pressure are you running behind those injectors?

Have you seen the OE setup that BMW did on the fancy M4?

https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/magazin ... orses.html

Functional description;

Water injectionS55
The water injection is installed in the M4 GTS for the purpose of an increase in performance. The only change on the known engine S55 is the equipment of the intake plenum with the three water injection valves. The functions of the engine control unit were expanded accordingly.
Description
The water injection sprays distilled water into the intake air and thereby causes cooling of the condensed intake air. As a result, the temperature drops during compression and combustion, so that better ignition points can be driven. The better combustion efficiency increases the maximum power.

The water is injected with a pressure of 10 bar. After stopping the engine, the system is automatically drained into the water tank.


Figure 1: Schematic representation of water injection.

Item Explanation Item Explanation
A Water intake pipe B Water pressure lines (10 bar)
C Sensor signals D Actuating wires from the engine control unit
E 12 V actuating wires, switched by relay
1 Engine control unit 2 Water injection valves
3 Water injection relay 4 Water pressure sensor
5 Reversible flow valve 2 6 Valve block, water injection
7 Reversible flow valve 8 Shut-off valve
9 Water tank 10 Water pressure sensor and filling level sensor
11 Water pump 12 Water injection relay 2

Preconditions for the activation of the water injection
The water injection is activated by the engine control unit under the following preconditions:

Coolant temperature above 60°C.
Ambient temperature above 5 °C.
Water temperature above 5 °C.
Engine is operated in maximum power range.

Components of water injection

Water pump
The water pump is activated via the relay 2 water injection of the engine control unit and has two functions:
Generating the fuel injection pressure of 10 bar.
Draining the system back into the water tank.

Water injection valves
The three water injection valves are activated by the engine control unit and spray the water for cooling the intake air into the intake plenum.

Water tank
The water tank holds the 5 l water for the water injection and is equipped with a filling level sensor and water temperature sensor.

Reversible flow valve (integrated in valve block)
The two reversible flow valves (reversible flow valve and reversible flow valve 2) are activated via the water injection relay of the engine control unit. With the help of the reversible flow valves, the water pump can, depending on the valve position, either build the fuel injection pressure or drain the system.

Water pressure sensor (integrated in valve block)
The water pressure sensor measures the prevailing pressure in the system.

Shutoff valve (integrated in valve block)
The shutoff valve prevents the water from running back into the water tank on its own when the water pump is shut down.

The shutoff valve is activated by the relay 2 water injection, which also activates the water pump.
RICE RACING
Posts: 384
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Re: More water / meth injection

Post by RICE RACING »

I have logged to 10 bar, thanks for the write up, I did see it but never looked in much detail.
My set up wont be at this pressure though. Still have a few aspects to engineer out of it to make this 'toilet water' pump better as the cycle to cycle variation currently is what I would say it too high for true synchronous application taking full advantage of this delivery method.
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stevieturbo
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Re: More water / meth injection

Post by stevieturbo »

What pump does the BMW use ?

It never really took off though with the BMW ?
MReilly
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:05 pm

Re: More water / meth injection

Post by MReilly »

Just had another dig through to see, looks remarkably similar to the AEM style pump we all know;



Water pump
The known engine S55B30T0 is used. The power could be increased to 368 kW/500 hp using water injection and the torque could be increased to 600 Nm.

Since distilled water also contains bound oxygen and leads to cooling of the combustion chamber, the filling can thus be increased above the charging pressure in the cylinder by using distilled water. Accordingly, more power can be generated in the combustion engine.

Functional description
The medium of distilled water (subsequently called "water") is carried along in a separate washer fluid reservoir in the vehicle. For a certain operating point (e.g. charging pressure, load, engine speed), the water is drawn in and compressed to 10 bar through a coolant pump. The drawn in water is moved to 3 water injection valves through a line. The water is finely atomized and injected and supplied via the funnels to the combustion chamber with the help of the water injection valves, which are installed in the intake plenum for the intake air.


Item Explanation Item Explanation
1 Water pump 2 Connection to water line
3 Connection to water line
The water pump is activated by the engine control via water injection relay 2. The coolant pump generates a pressure of approx. 10 bar.

A water pressure sensor on the valve block monitors the pressure generated by the coolant pump.

Structure and inner electrical connection
The coolant pump is connected using a two-pin plug connection.

The water pump is switched on and off via water injection relay 2. The coolant pump has only one direction of movement. For this reason, the backflush valves are necessary in order to empty the water lines.


Item Explanation Item Explanation
1 Water pump 2 Interference suppression capacitor
3 Pump motor
Pin assignments

Pin Explanation
U Voltage supply of coolant pump
Kl. 31 Terminal 31, ground
Activation and setpoint values
Please note the following setpoint values for the coolant pump:
Variable Value
Supply voltage 9 to 16 volts
System pressure maximum 10 bar
Temperature range -30 °C to 140 °C
Diagnosis instructions
Failure of the component
If the coolant pump fails, the following behaviour is to be expected:

Water injection not possible
The water injection has diagnostic capability through the Digital Motor Electronics (DME).

General notes

Note!

When the engine is stopped and when the system is drained, operating noises are generated, which can be heard by the customer. These operating noises cannot be avoided for reasons inherent in the system.







I've attached a picture of the pump, and the diagram from the body of text before, if it is of any interest
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BMW Water injection.jpg
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stevieturbo
Posts: 1100
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Re: More water / meth injection

Post by stevieturbo »

It may only be an outline, but sure looks like the common standard DDP5800 pump or a variant of it.
RICE RACING
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:08 am

Re: More water / meth injection

Post by RICE RACING »

100% that is the same three chamber 'toilet water' RV pump from hell :lol:
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RICE RACING
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Re: More water / meth injection

Post by RICE RACING »

May as well share this for others benefit.

This is showing 6 cycles of an injector combined with the 'toilet water' pump. Center of ~7ms pressure log, you can all see this issue of this clear as day, you have a pump head at (in this example) 85.7Hz, injector at 34.75Hz you have a timing overlay shift dep on run time at fixed operation points where the amount delivered can vary allot! so sometimes the oscillation looks acceptable then other times its not. The 'toilet water' pump head has a three chamber design that the inlet on the left feeds the head and as the wobbler goes around the chamber work in sequence and each one of them has a pressure drop the furthest away is worst repeated every revolution. Pump speed and thus frequency of this pressure drop varies but is worse the higher the base pressure requested. Compound this with PWM speed settings from 300rpm to 2100rpm (open flow) or around 1700rpm at high pressure and you can start to get an idea of the problem.

Overlay on top the function of the injector (size/flow-number of them) then it gets more complex, very easy to see how kuntz blow shit up on a 'conservative tune' when they have zero idea of how the volume can change cycle to cycle per cylinder, you may think you have X amount of percentage of WM but what actually happens is another matter.
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MReilly
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Re: More water / meth injection

Post by MReilly »

Now that's a money saving part number to know Stevie, thanks for that!

Have you experimented with any sort of an accumulator / pulsation damper type arrangement Peter?

Do you use the internal regulator in the pump, or an external one? Are the injectors at a "dead head" with a single line feed to them after the regulation?

I've had trouble with pulsation in a conventional petrol fuel system when running a dead head system before, there seems to be something good in having the injectors in between the regulator and the pump in smoothing out pulsations, I guess the regulator acts as a sort of damper and dissipates the reflections of the injectors pulsations, maybe it would help with the pumps pulsations too?
RICE RACING
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:08 am

Re: More water / meth injection

Post by RICE RACING »

MReilly wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:09 am Now that's a money saving part number to know Stevie, thanks for that!

Have you experimented with any sort of an accumulator / pulsation damper type arrangement Peter?

Do you use the internal regulator in the pump, or an external one? Are the injectors at a "dead head" with a single line feed to them after the regulation?

I've had trouble with pulsation in a conventional petrol fuel system when running a dead head system before, there seems to be something good in having the injectors in between the regulator and the pump in smoothing out pulsations, I guess the regulator acts as a sort of damper and dissipates the reflections of the injectors pulsations, maybe it would help with the pumps pulsations too?
There are pulses with nothing in the system (just the 'toilet water' RV bilge) pump fitted :)
Have tried a few things, some work well, keep that to myself though 8-) just did not see others talking about this so thought it deserved a plot showing what is going on, worst thing is people arse ume that its fine when looking at a mechanical gauge. I don't have the time to test others configurations but I could foresee this same thing happening on a typical manifold distribution system that is being pulsed by a HSV for example in a direct port system, which could potentially be fatal and none would be the wiser :shock:
Sans that type even just the ghetto band X shitbox system using the same 'toilet water' pump run at high pressure will have the same pulsations there, combined with say poor distribution I can easily see it going from safe 'conservative tune' LOL to shit blew up for no apparent reason type deal :roll:
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