Honda K series Crank & Cam Type

[HondaDrag]

Hi, I am configuring my S8 so hopefully next week when i finish the wiring I start the car and i have some questions on the setup for the crank and cam type under sensors and configurations.

The crank and cam sensors are both 3 wire sensors, ie. hall effect sensors.
The stock crank wheel is 12+1 tooth and the Cam sensor on the exhaust is 4+1.

So under sensors, i used 5volts, no filter, rising edge, and high/low 3.75/0.75v for now, same settings for both sensors not sure if they are ok.

Next part is crank and cam type, since both cam & crank have the extra tooth should i use Generic- extra tooth single cam? and then set the Generic crank and cam setup?

I have attached some pics and info i could find.

Thanks alot for help.

[pavlo]

Easy enough.

Extra tooth setup, manual cam checklist.

It will run in sync 360 without the cam sensor input, and if you don't know the angles you can generate them as CamRaw and work out the cam checklist angles. But if you have a spec that gives the position of the extra tooth I can get you close enough to run in 720 sync and just need to fine tune the ref angle with a timing light.

Edges may need to change, subject to exact angles they fall in and how sharp the edges are.

Cheers

Paul

[HondaDrag]

Hi Paul, thanks alot for help, appreciated.

So under fundamentals- crank and cam type i use Generic-extra tooth single cam and then under Manual cam checklist i enable Manual Cam checklist.

But what is the purpose of the manual cam checklist? to find the cam phasing so it can switch to full sequential? and is there a particular procedure how to do it??.....sorry for bugging you

The extra tooth on the crank wheel comes 10 degrees ATDC on cyl 1/4

Regarding number of teeth under Generic Crank and Cam setup in my setup it should be 13 am i right since i am not sure how Syvecs needs the info. I am still
trying to get used to this ecu as i used to DTA, AEM, Motecs, Hondatas, etc....

Thanks again

[pavlo]

It's not easy to explain the manual cam check list, with you 10 deg info I can sort a cal file for you.

Essentially the check angles in the cam check list are chosen so that there are a different number of events in each phase. Looking at your scope trace, there are 3 events in one phase and 2 in another. The checklist works like a a counter, you are looking at the number of events since the last check angle

Using rising edges for cam.
So check angles at 0 and 270.
Phase 1 0=2 270=1
Phase2 0=1 270=2

[pavlo]

okay I've spent a little more time to sort this out, and will update the thread with screenshots of what you need to change.

[pavlo]

So below I have a screenshot of all the relavent settings except reference angle, which for us will be the tooth after the extra tooth, so depending on the choice of edge it will be at 30deg or so, and we would check this with a timing light to be sure.

k20 syvecs settings

k20-trigger.png (136.66 KiB) Viewed 36749 times

The manual cam checklist is mostly explained below. The nice thing about it is we are not so fussed about having exact numbers for the purposes of synchronisation, just the number of events in a crank angle range of our choosing. In each phase we create as many angles as we want, and from one angle to the next we simple need to know how many cam events there have been. So the ECU can determine the phase they each need to be different, so we choose the angles carefully. It is important to note, that the check angles at the first check angle in the first phase are not from TDC, but from the last check angle in the last phase.

You can also get the car running in sync 360 and CamRaw will tell you where the ECU thinks the angles are. In the case below I would estimate 20°, 120° and 340° in phase 1 and just 120° and 340° in phase 2. When the engine runs in sync 720 however it will report those cam angles wrt the full 720° engine cycle so they will become 20,120,340,480,700.

It's also worth noting that if the sensor is equally effective and reliable on both rising and falling edges, we can choose either of them under the sensors menu for the crank and cam sensors. For some trigger patterns and strategies it might be useful to offset an angle of a cam sensor so it is nicely positioned between crank sensor events (in the case of keyed by single cam) or that it is not very close to TDC and liable to drift from the beginning of one phase to the end of another (in the case of Single Gap Single Cam).

I have assumed the extra cam tooth is in phase 1 when cylinders 1 and 3 are firing, but there is an easy way to check. First of all get your crank setup sorted and then under "Starting->Minimum Engine speed for 720 sync" set that to some speed higher than start or idle speeds, get the engine started and running half right in sync 360 then rev beyond the minimum to enter 720 synch. If the phases are wrong the engine will stop dead, in which case all you need to do is swap the checklist counts in each phase. So 2 and 1 in phase 1 with 1 and 1 in phase 2 would become 1 and 1 in phase 1, with 2 and 1 in phase 2.

Manual cam check list explaination diagram

manual-cam.jpg (138.87 KiB) Viewed 36765 times

[HondaDrag]

Wow, great information Pavlo, thanks alot, appreciated.

I took a look at the information you provided me and now it makes much more sense, in a few days I will finish the car`s wiring and can start sorting the map config , etc and
will let you know how things are going with the S8. No summer holidays for me this year, i want the car ready

By any chance how did you put all that information on Scal ?.......it would be great if you write a book on this ecu as its a league on its own and you look that you have some serious experience with it.

[pavlo]

You can create worksheets with multiple maps shown, add a worksheet then add cals to it for fuel, ignition or whatever, save the worksheet with a name.

I don't tend to use it myself as I want big graphs on my laptop and have plenty of gauges running which I also have saved so i can flick between then quickly, but I do use the Z and X keys to cycle back and forth between maps quickly.

[HondaDrag]

I tried to crank the engine over and an error is on: Long tooth gap.

I had to make crank and cam to thermistors as i had no waveform when set to +5v.

I have attached the Calibration, Synclog and Image.

Also I have another query, when i was calibrating the sensors i have fitted an 8 channel EGT technolgies amplifier to monitor 6 channel, ie... 4 cylinders and to other temps.
The amplifier outputs 0-5v and each channel is wired in Therm#1, Therm#2, gereral inputs 2,3,4,6.

When I set input config under sensors/EGT 1 & 2 to 5v and try to program device and error comes up and wont syc, when i put them to K-type thermocouple it syc ok but then it wont
read the EGT 1&2 the remainging 4 gerenal inputs work ok set at 5v

Why is this happening? does Therm#1, and Therm#2 accept only thermocouples as inputs??

Thanks for help.

[pavlo]

Your input type will need to be thermister for those sensors.

Long tooth gap might mean I've been too tight with the timing, or I've put the gaps backwards. But the important thing is to get a synclog from the ECU, so I will have a look at that.

Thermo input are thermocouple inputs, but you can use AN01-20 set to 5v input, however you will notice that there are only 2 EGT inputs that will be used by the strategies to run the engine. You can still log the channels you use though to keep everything in one place.

I'll have a look at a few things and see what I can see!